高德思：說起來也有些突兀，但我在這里想特別提一下斯托克代爾悖論,，因?yàn)檫@個(gè)悖論實(shí)在很有深度,，可以應(yīng)用到商界甚至更廣泛的領(lǐng)域,。
吉姆·柯林斯：幾周前,，我有幸去朋友組織的一個(gè)會(huì)議做演講，我的朋友在搞一個(gè)“積極訓(xùn)練聯(lián)盟”。這是吉姆·湯普森創(chuàng)辦的一家非營利機(jī)構(gòu),。會(huì)議主題是如何通過體育運(yùn)動(dòng)的積極訓(xùn)練促進(jìn)青年發(fā)展,。由于這個(gè)組織最初成立于斯坦福大學(xué)內(nèi)部，他問我是否愿意讓從前在斯坦福上過我課的學(xué)生來聽一下,。我說這點(diǎn)子太棒了,。結(jié)果我以前的那些學(xué)生把會(huì)議室給撐了個(gè)滿滿當(dāng)當(dāng)。有些還是八九十年代上我課的學(xué)生,。太久不見了,，看到他們，我激動(dòng)極了,。
聊天的時(shí)候我問了一句：“在這房間里,，有多少人，自從我們上次見面起,，或是自從畢業(yè)之后,，在生活中被狠狠地打擊過？我是說,，個(gè)人生活上的打擊,、事業(yè)上的沖擊、或者生了一場什么病之類的,，有人曾經(jīng)遭受過這樣的打擊嗎,？”
幾乎所有人都舉了手。哇哦,！我和他們平均有15年沒見面了,，盡管不同的人經(jīng)歷的挫折不同，但我看得出在這么長一段生活中,，人們多多少少都可能會(huì)受到打擊,。所以，我認(rèn)為人生境遇的本質(zhì)注定了人偶爾要遭受打擊,?？傆惺虑閷?huì)打擊到你。
這就該說到斯托克代爾悖論了,。海軍上將吉姆·斯托克代爾闡述了這一悖論,，日后人們就用他的名字命名這一理論。斯托克代爾是個(gè)名人,，他并不知道他是我個(gè)人董事會(huì)中的一員,，但我的確給他留了個(gè)位置。
斯托克代爾是“河內(nèi)希爾頓”（Hanoi Hilton,，北越戰(zhàn)俘營）軍銜最高的將領(lǐng)之一,，身上擔(dān)負(fù)著指揮的重責(zé),，他也因此顯得特別堅(jiān)毅。
我還記得,，在有機(jī)會(huì)和他碰面之前,，我曾讀過他寫的書《愛情與戰(zhàn)爭》。讀完他在戰(zhàn)俘營里那幾年的經(jīng)歷后,，我覺得很沮喪,。 那么慘淡的生活，就好象他們隨時(shí)會(huì)把他拖去折磨一番,。他和其他的戰(zhàn)俘都不知道自己這輩子能不能出去,。突然間，我想到,，天啊,，寫這書的時(shí)候他還不知道結(jié)局會(huì)是怎樣。我是知道結(jié)尾的,，我知道他最終獲釋了,。但他是書的主人公啊，他并不知道自己的結(jié)局,，怎么能毫無沮喪地記敘這樣的生活呢,？我只是讀一下就已經(jīng)讀得很郁悶了。
后來我就當(dāng)面問了他,。他說,，我從來沒有陷入過一般意義上的那種絕望狀態(tài)，因?yàn)閷τ谖业男拍?，我從未?dòng)搖,，我相信自己不僅一定可以出去，而且還能借此經(jīng)歷徹底改變我的人生,。他的這些話,，因?yàn)閮?nèi)容不太合適的關(guān)系，我沒有寫進(jìn)《從優(yōu)秀到卓越》里,，但聽來卻非常有意思,。他說，他悟出了自由是什么,。自由和人的境遇無關(guān),，而是在這里。他開始指向校園里的路人,。 |
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Thomas D. Gorman: It's not a direct segue, but I have been meaning to bring up the Stockdale Paradox, because I think it's such a profound insight that you've developed and perhaps you could just elaborate on it in the business context and perhaps more broadly.
Jim Collins: A few weeks ago I had the privilege to do a session for a friend of mine that runs a thing called The Positive Coaching Alliance. Jim Thompson, who had, it's a great non-profit, it's basically around the idea that you can develop young people through positive coaching in sports. As part of that, it's based out of Stanford. He asked if I'd like to have a session with a number of my former students who had been in my classes at Stanford. I thought that would fabulous. A large number of my former students showed up, a full room of former students. And it was great to see them, some of them my students back from 1980's, 1990's whatever. So, they are all there and I haven't seen many of these people for a long time.
And, I at one point in the conversation I just said, "how many of you in this room, since we last saw each other or since you graduated, have just gotten crushed by something in life? I mean, I don't know, whatever it is, personal, professional, disease, whatever, but life just came up and it just crushed you?"
Every single hand in that room went up. Wow. And as I talked with them, it's different for different people, but, everybody, 15-year average since I'd seen them, the probability is that you're going to get crushed by something. So, I think the nature of the human condition is, sometimes life's going to come up and it's going to crush you. Something is going to crush you.
That brings us to the Stockdale Paradox. Admiral Jim Stockdale, who we named it after, is the one who really crystallized the idea. Stockdale was somebody; he never knew he was on my personal board of directors. But, he was one that I had a spot for.
Stockdale had been the highest-ranking military officer in Hanoi Hilton. He had the burden of command, which sort of added to his strength.
And I remember reading his book In Love and War before I had a chance to meet him. And I got depressed reading the book because it's about the years he spent in the prison camp. And I realized it just seemed so bleak, they could pull him out anytime and torture him. He and the other prisoners didn't know if they would ever get out. And all of a sudden I realized, my goodness, he didn't know the end of the story. I know that he gets out, I know the end of the story. He doesn't know the end of the story, he's living it, how did he not just get depressed, when even I am depressed just reading it.
And that's when I asked him and he said, I never got depressed in the conventional sense, because I never wavered in my faith that I would not only get out, but I would turn this into a defining event in my life. And something we didn't put in Good to Great because it just didn't fit in, but I thought was very interesting. He said how much he learned about what freedom is. And he said, freedom is not your condition, it's in here, he started pointing to people on campus.
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