吉姆·柯林斯：現(xiàn)在我要說說兩點關于攀巖的感悟,，這兩點在我看來非常有價值,。首先，是對于自我放棄（failure）和被迫放棄(fallure)的抉擇,。我不知道這兩個詞該怎么翻譯成中文,。

高德思：我們會想辦法的。

吉姆·柯林斯：是這樣的：你現(xiàn)在要開始就地攀爬,，這意味著你第一次爬一條新的路線,。也可能是紅點攀爬，即你練習過這條路線,，但就地攀爬不確定性更高,，因為你不知道支點在哪里，不知道你是否會因為過度緊張興奮而出現(xiàn)勾不住繩索或是其他意外的失誤?，F(xiàn)在上路了,。然后到了某處，你的肌肉突然開始不聽使喚,，心跳加速,，不確定性陡然增加，心里變得焦急萬分,。這時候你就要做選擇了。選擇自我放棄或被迫放棄,。當然,，我指的這種情況是允許自我放棄的情況，雖然并不是每次攀巖都是如此,。在這樣一個相對安全的環(huán)境里,，你必須做一個選擇。選擇自我放棄就意味著,，你在心理上或者生理上放棄了,。又或者你接下來不想盡全力了，或者是靠同伴用繩索拉著你,?？傊还茉鯓樱藭r你精神上已經(jīng)垮了,。即便在外人看來你還在盡力爬,，但你心里清楚自己已經(jīng)垮了,。

再看看被迫放棄，此時你并沒有垮掉,，你只是無法再向上爬了,。你盡了全力，步步為營,，決心要堅持到底,，一路上你毫無保留，但還是掉了下來,。然而,，雖敗猶榮，這完全是一種內(nèi)心的榮譽感,。這次攀巖并不是真的為了爬上山頭,，而是為榮譽而戰(zhàn)。這完全是一種自我評價,。因為你可以讓人們覺得你是被迫放棄,，但只有你自己知道是否真的是被迫放棄。知道自己究竟垮了沒有,。我會記錄下就地攀爬的結(jié)果,，是成功還是失敗。無論是否登頂,，我都把被迫放棄算作成功,。關鍵在于：我到底有沒有盡全力？這對我來說是重要的人生經(jīng)驗,，因為生活中也有很多關于自我放棄和被迫放棄的抉擇,。

???

Jim Collins: Now, there are two lessons from climbing that I have found personally very valuable. One is, the constant battle between failure and fallure. I have no idea how this would translate into Chinese.

Thomas D. Gorman: We'll figure it out.

Jim Collins: But, the essence of it is this. You're on a climb, it's an onsite go, which means it's your first time on the route. It could also be a red point, which means you know the route, but onsite has more uncertainty, 'cause you don't know what the holds are, you don't know if you're going to be too pumped to be able to clip the rope or whatever it happens to be. So now it's like "go". And there's this point where you start to, your muscles start to fail, your heart rate is up, there's a high rate of uncertainty coming, and you've got anxiety. And there come these moments of decision, and choices between failure and fallure. Now, this has to be in an environment where falling is ok, and not in all climbs is that the case. It's relatively a safe climb, relatively safe. There comes this decision point were failure means, you let go. You either physically let go, you mentally let go and not try that hard, or you only give a half-hearted attempt to the next thing, or you have your partner hold you on the rope, or whatever happens to be, but you are mentally broke at that moment. You know it, even if it looks to an outsider like you tried hard, you know if you broke.

And then there's fallure. Now, a fallure is, you didn't break, you just didn't succeed getting up the route. You tried your absolute hardest, you went from hold to hold, you went fully committed attempted to go up, left nothing on the table, you still fell, but you fell in a completely honorable attempt to go, and it's all about the inner honor. It's about, it's not about getting to the top of the climb, it's about your honor. And it's all self-assessed, because you could make people think you went to fallure. You're the only one who knows if you really went to fallure. And, did you break, did you not break? And the battle and I would keep track, a little spreadsheet of success and failure on onsite.

?

Jim Collins: Fallure counted as success, didn't matter whether or not I made the top. The question is, did I go to fallure? And that to me has been kind of a life lesson; 'cause there's lots of choices between failure and fallure. There come these moments, do you put everything in, did you try you hardest, did you know that you couldn't have left one little thing unturned? I mean, you put, you know, you went, you still might have failed. You might not have made it, but you know what was a fallure attempt. You looked at it and you can’t expect any more out of yourself. Because you didn't succeed but you did it with honor and therefore, you succeeded. And for me, climbing is a constant test piece of failure and fallure and it's an inner journey and that cliff doesn't care. But, it's all what happens in here.

The other is, and a thing I think is about kind of keeping yourself anew but maybe it happens in fly-fishing too. Always be looking for the things that will make you a beginner. Huh? So, you can kind of, as you go along, you can say, I'm going to do more and more of this stuff I'm already expert at. And I'll do the climbs that I can most easily achieve because I'm most expert at those. Or, you can say, I'm not very good at wide cracks, for example, I think I'll go do wide cracks at age 52. Why ? Because I'm really bad at them. I will therefore get the joy of being a beginner. And the wonderful aspect of throwing yourself constantly into situations, where you aren't very good at it, which then allows you the joy of being a beginner. My wife likes to say I'm the most expert beginner she knows. And actually I think that's really true, climbing is a place where I actually, once I've mastered something I'll just put it in my repertoire. What I'm really interested in is the journey through what I don't know, and climbing provides that.

And the last thing from climbing that's been really key for me is, there are so many things from climbing. We talked a lot here about the people thing. When I was younger, I used to say, what climb do I want to do and I'll try to figure out who I can get to go with me. And if life is people and I think it is. I don't do it that way anymore. It's who do I want to climb with and then I'll figure out what to climb. Because the real quality of the experience is in who you're climbing with. In the end, because again, the rock doesn't care. The rock doesn't love you the way your partners do.

So, those have all been; now that's one I took from the research back to the climbing. I have friends that are always just like, this is the climb that I want to do, do you want to go with me? And then I have others, whom I tend to climb with a lot, who say, let's go climbing on Saturday? Ok, great, let's meet at the parking lot at eight. And we don't even talk about what we're going to climb. Until we met there at eight. Probably talk for about 15 minutes and not talk about the climbing and then, what do we want to get scared on today?