高德思：之前您在談到尋找合適員工的時候提起了性格特質(zhì)。

吉姆·柯林斯：是的,。

高德思：去招募那些性格合適的人,，哪怕他們?nèi)狈I(yè)知識。有一條性格特質(zhì)不在清單上,，但卻給我很深印象。那就是團隊合作,，即在團隊中進行工作的能力,，因為這一點在中國廣受討論,。我有時認(rèn)為在美國我們將團隊合作看得過于理所當(dāng)然了。因為從小學(xué)開始,，我們的孩子就處在一個與伙伴合作的環(huán)境中,。我認(rèn)為有人會說，當(dāng)今中國的教育體系并不擅長培養(yǎng)團隊合作精神,。你說得很有道理,，性格特質(zhì)很難言傳，這幾乎是不可能的,。那么團隊合作精神究竟是什么呢,？它們是否不在性格特質(zhì)的范疇內(nèi)，而可以由他人或者公司后天培養(yǎng)出來,？

吉姆·柯林斯：我確信人們互相依存的理念是可以被后天教授的,，我們在實踐中也證實了這一點。

聯(lián)邦快遞（Federal Express）是我最欣賞創(chuàng)業(yè)企業(yè)之一,，而我最欽佩的人就是弗雷德?史密斯,。我知道聯(lián)邦快遞在中國也業(yè)績斐然。但是該公司起步階段的故事卻鮮為人知,。當(dāng)時史密斯從越南的海軍陸戰(zhàn)隊服役歸來,。他從海軍陸戰(zhàn)隊學(xué)到的核心價值觀就是只有同舟共濟才能經(jīng)受住最嚴(yán)酷的考驗。

我和一位海軍陸戰(zhàn)隊的將軍曾有過一段有趣的對話,。我問他,，新兵訓(xùn)練營的目的何在？他說,，新兵訓(xùn)練營不是為了發(fā)現(xiàn)最能吃苦的人,，而是讓人明白，在最惡劣的情況下,，人人都會崩潰,。而要渡過難關(guān)的唯一方法就是互相幫助。這才是新兵訓(xùn)練營的真正意義,。

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Thomas D. Gorman: You talked a moment ago about -- in the context of finding the right people character traits.

Jim Collins: Yep.

Thomas D. Gorman: And recruiting people that have the right character traits even though they might lack the specialized knowledge. Now, one of the elements that is not in that list that struck me, because it's the subject of some discussion in China, and that is teamwork, the ability to work in teams. Sometimes I think in the American context we take that for granted a little bit. Because starting in primary school our kids get exposed to working in teams. And I think some people would say, that's not a particular strength of the Chinese education system at this point of time.You've made the point, which I think is clear, that character traits are very hard to teach, probably impossible. What about things like teamwork, is that somewhere beyond the realm of character traits, is that something people can teach, companies can teach?

Jim Collins: I do believe that the sense of people really depending on each other can be taught, and we see that.

One of my favorite company foundings, start-ups is Federal Express, and who I greatly admire is, Fred Smith. Fred Smith, and I understand that Federal Express is fairly substantial in China now as well. But many people don't know that in the early days of this company,. when Fred Smith came back from serving with the Marine Corps in Vietnam. And he came back from Vietnam and what he learned in the Corps reinforced, is that you can only get through the worst situations together.

I had an interesting conversation with a Marine Corps General, and I asked, what's the purpose of boot camp? He said, boot camp isn't designed to find the toughest people; it's to teach people that under the worst circumstances everyone will break. So, the only way you get through is by helping each other. That's what it's really about.

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Jim Collins: And Fred Smith, kind of had this experience and he came back and he said, first of all, he hated the idea of a kind of executive class and an everybody else class, (because) we're all in it together. And a start up is a little bit like, it's a pretty extreme adventure like Federal Express. He said, I'm going to build this whole thing; this entire system depends upon everybody depending on each other. And you just think about those airplanes, right? They have to take off and everybody's got to get their packages there on time. And if one kind of person fails as a member of this unit, the whole system is in peril. And Fred Smith's belief was, that you could find and train people for that ethic of "you're depending on me and I'm depending on you"; we both come through and that's how it works. You have to come through. And he made this the cornerstone of the company's culture, and if you think about what made FedEx work, it wasn't planes, anyone could buy planes. But, what he did was to build a system that was all about people working in a gigantic team. And then as people come into that system, somebody who could never learn it, won't make it there. But, he was able to build, not with just ten people or a hundred people, but thousands of people who, I think it was something they both selected for and developed and worked on, because the whole system requires it.

Now, two thoughts on this thing about teamwork though. Some seats are not team seats; I mean if you're an individual scientist working off in a corner, it may not be about teamwork. Most environments to some extent are, and let's go back to the level 5 pyramid. To truly be level 5, you also have to be level 2, so level 1 is about having individual skills; level 2 is about playing well with others, I mean level 2 is about team skills; and then level three's about managerial. So, you really can't be an effective manager if you're not a good member of the team; and you can't be a good member of the team if you're not a really effective individual. And you also ultimately can't be an effective leader if you're not a competent manager and so on down the chain. So, it is a very important, but I would argue, a very learnable capability.